Newbie seeks help, stuck in friend zone!

I'm new here, but I'm not a hopeless failure with women. I've begun to read The Game, (I'm on pg 33,) and realize I've been doing a lot of this without even knowing it, which has contributed to my success with girls. When I say "success," I mean I'm 17, a senior in high school, and I've had 3 girlfriends, the last one lasting three and a half years. They weren't knockout 10's or anything, but they kept me happy, and I kept them happy. The last one threw me into the friend zone, which is fine. I don't want her back.

It's been 4 weeks, I've moved on, whatever. There is a girl I've known for a couple of months, we started as co-workers, then moved to friends, and I'd like to be more than that. I'm fairly sure she knows this, and has known. Although it was a total dick move on my part, I was one of the biggest factors of her breaking up with her boyriend of one month, (nothing serious.) We got along great, we hung/hang out on a fairly regular basis, I've gotten several IOI from her. Hell, since we're coworkers as well, as Lifeguards at our local high school pool, she went for a swim, came out, complained about being sore, so I jokingly offered her a massage. In front of the rest of our coworkers (a couple of guys way more physically attractive than me,) I gave her this great back massage, she enjoyed it, it was awesome.

Then the other night we end up at my place, (really my parents' place, but I'm only 17, I figure that's alright.) We watched The Orphanage, a particularly scary Spanish film, since we are both total gringos trying to learn Spanish in school. Well she freaks out, (it IS pretty scary!) and clutches my hand at parts in the film, squeezing it tighter than I would have liked (I thought she was gonna break it.) We're sitting next to each other on my bed, and at some points in the film, it's too much for her to watch, so she buries her head in my leg. Not quite my shoulder, my leg. Whatever. I rub her back, comfort her, tell her to calm down, it's just a film.

A different night, we're out with friends, (another co-worker and ex-coworker, two of my best friends, great wingmen!) she complains her legs are tired. I end up carrying her to the car.

We're hanging out one day, I get a haircut. It gets a little messy, we're there for about half an hour, but she's patient and waits it out. She doesn't even say she's bored. I end up with a decent looking high-and-tight haircut, and she's freaking out about how much she loves it. She's constantly rubbing my head, "OMG it's soooo fuzzy!" I'm just relishing it. She also loves to hear about my ex-girlfriend and our relationship, what we did, why she wasn't good, how I felt. She knows my ex-girlfriend a little bit, they aren't friends, per se, but they swam together on the high school swim team. My ex-girlfriend was the captain.

I considered all of these serious IOI, with minor ones in between, that I'm not going to mention right now.

She's not a particularly "easy girl," or so she proclaims. I've convinced her to stop smoking pot, (a huge thing for me, I can't stand smokers.) She's also my workout buddy. I have a membership at a gym, where I can bring guests for free, so I take her. We go 3-4 times a week. I'm not a super-buff guy, but I'm working on it. I've got some fluff to lose. She's been complimenting me on how much weight I've lost. I've been negging her, doing some kino, (I finally know what to call it!) even before beginning to read The Game.

Last night was our first semi-date. It wasn't a formal date, we didn't call it a date. We saw Valkyrie, and ate ice cream we had snuck in under our coats. It was cute. Around halfway in the movie, I tried holding her hand. It was good, for about 3 minutes, then she says "Can I have my hand back?" At first I said "No," and kinda squeezed, trying to be cute. She laughed it off and removed her hand anyway.

I'm at a loss. I told you, I'm not very experienced. I may post again later with additional details, but that should be enough to get you guys started. TL;DR Help an AFC out of the friend zone. Please.

Well, everything you mentioned sounded like you were already fucking her . . . until you got to the point of her pulling her hand away.

I'm sure you don't want to lose any of the friendship that you have with her, right?

I would watch for a window to kiss her, then pull the trigger. See how she takes to that. If she knows you like her and she feels the same, a part of her will be open to it, a part of her will be scared of it, and that's when you need to re-assure her that it's ok. If she doesn't want you that way, then you should sincerely apologize for your slip up and definitely re-assure her that you value your friendship.

The most obvious sign that she WANTS to kiss you is her triangulating her gaze. She looks at your eyes and your mouth in a triangle motion with her eyes. It's her showing you without her realizing it that she is wondering how your lips would taste and feel on hers.

Welcome to the forum.

I'll definitely keep an eye out for triangulation!

Yeah, I don't know. I'll probably end up apologizing today. The truth is, I value our friendship, but I thought we could be so much more. She's a great girl, but I'm on the verge of strangling her, figuratively.

Since I'm just out of a relationship, I don't know too many girls. I'm not into the social scenes really, there aren't many clubs that will allow a 17-year-old to enter and mingle. I've had older women (I mean 19 and up) be really into me, until they figure out I'm much younger than them. Ideally, I want somebody around my age anyhow. This girl that I'm talking about is one year younger than me.

Not to sound like a total idiot, but what kind of window would be best for a kiss? We never have that ideal silence while looking into each others eyes...

In any case, I really appreciate your reply, and any advice is appreciated!

Oh and if anybody is lacking information on my situation, I'm very open about it, feel free to ask, no question will go unanswered, no rock unturned.

Well, don't apologize if you haven't done anything to offend her, bro.

You do also have the choice of maintaining the friendship with her and making connections with other girls that SHE knows and going out with them, while keeping her in the friend zone.

That's just another option.

When I say a window for the kiss, it's figurative. It just means when she is thinking about it in that moment, and you catch the signs that she's thinking about it, you pull the trigger. She will think about it, but you have to pull the trigger and close.

I dig your idea on making connections with her friends... that would be ridiculously awesome. I just don't know them at all. Hopefully I can pick up a few tricks from you guys, or The Game, and that will all change.

Non-PUA have suggested that I give it a bit of time, bathe in the friend zone, and then eventually end up being the "guy that was always there" for her. So far, that's what's happened. She regularly spills her emotions to me, about her issues, and trusts my advice. That's how I got her to leave her dick boyfriend, for me (or so I thought.)

She talks to me about everything, comfortably. Somehow the conversation would often lead to talk about sex, or other sensitive issues that I thought meant she trusted me and was into me.

Like I said, I'm not in it just to fuck her, (though it would be nice, she's a virgin, and I've got a thing for that...) I'd actually want a relationship out of it.

Again, I'm 17. It's a different world, the resources I'd like are not always open to me. I still have yet to get my license XD

OOohhh, she's a virgin. THAT makes a difference too actually. DON'T push for her to have sex like you would with another girl.

As far as you not knowing her girl friends . . . that's why you have her to introduce you to them. She will surely talk highly of you, which immediately opens them up to you.

Bathe in the friend zone? No, that's not how to get her into bed with you. The guy that was always there for her . . . BEFORE he got between her legs most likely won't end up between her legs. There ARE situations or occasions when that happens, but it's not likely.

Of course, the fact that she talks to you about sex shows there is some interest there. Added to that the fact that she's a virgin, and that could be what's holding her back, such as pulling her hand away from you.

This is one of those girls that if you did fuck her, taking her virginity, you HAVE to be ready to be a one-woman man for a while so that she doesn't feel used and abused. That's not our purpose as PUA's.

The serious and intimate talk from her indicates that, yes there is a definite level of trust there, and most likely she has thought about you sexually, but she's not as willing to jump since she's still a virgin, which makes her a bit more fragile than most girls.

If she wasn't a virgin, and she talked to you the same way, it wouldn't be hard for you to take things there with her.

Yeah, I don't mind staying with her for a while, so she doesn't feel used. She's too nice of a girl to just "fuck" anyway; there are real emotions between us, I'm just confused on her side.

Not a very PUA-like attitude, but I can commit for the rest of my senior year without regretting it.

Man, if she thought about me sexually, that would be awesome; I'm not the kind of guy most girls think about in that way. Then again, she likes to hear about it when I talk about me and my ex-girlfriend and the kind of stuff we did.

She likes to drink... opinions on using a social lubricant? Not to take advantage of her, but to get her to open up a little bit, I won't go as far as sex...

If she wasn't a virgin, I wouldn't have a problem with the alcohol so much, personally, but since she is, no. I wouldn't do it that way. Since she's a virgin, she needs to be fully aware of what she's doing.

I wouldn't say that's not PUA-like attitude, just because you're willing to commit to her for the rest of your senior year. PUA isn't just about picking up a new girl every day to fuck.

Even for those of us that can do that, not all of us do. Personally, I don't. Although I could pick up a new girl every time I go somewhere, I don't. It's not in my interest to do that. And, when I do give a girl the opportunity to have sex with me, I don't do it lightly. I do it with HER knowing that I'm not a one night stand kind of guy. I purposely tell the girl I don't intend to have sex with her if she's just looking for a one night thing.

Sure, that does flip the script which also increases her attraction for me, but it's also the truth on my part.

Sounds like you and me think similarly. Then again, I've never had a one night stand.

If she'd give me a chance, she'd figure out that I'm the guy she's been waiting for.

Is there anything you want to know that could help you give advice? Not that you haven't given me some great tips already, but I'm trying to get as much as I can. I'd rather be overprepared than underprepared.

Anybody else have other ideas/tips?

t3h_v4rg4sm wrote:

Sounds like you and me think similarly. Then again, I've never had a one night stand.

If she'd give me a chance, she'd figure out that I'm the guy she's been waiting for.

Is there anything you want to know that could help you give advice? Not that you haven't given me some great tips already, but I'm trying to get as much as I can. I'd rather be overprepared than underprepared.

Well, there's a fine line you've got to walk here. The statement you make, if she'd give you a chance, she's see you're the one, bears all the signs of one-itis.

Sure, I'm not big on one night stands, but at the same time, I normally don't wait around for a girl either, or beg her to give me a chance, etc. It's all in your mindset. If you're the guy she's been waiting for, she needs to see how high value you are. Which means you are in demand by other females, you lead men, you protect loved ones, and you are willing to show some emotion and act human.

But you can't be needy or clingy.

The only advice I have to add is that when you do kiss her for the first time, don't kiss her too hard, or try to stick your tongue down her throat. Make it a sensual but still somewhat gentle kiss. Make her want to kiss you again.

Well I wasn't going to lick her tonsils...

I'm told I'm a good kisser, so I'm not concerned there.

When I said that I was the guy she's been waiting for, I didn't mean "the one." It was more along the "I could make her very happy, happier than she's been with anybody else." I'm not saying I'm the best, but I'm fairly sure I'd raise her standards. Sounds cocky, but it's not difficult when you look at the guys she's dated up to now.

I wasn't planning to beg. I think what I'm missing is the attraction factor, so I've got to work on that. We're great friends, but I've got to flip that around to work so that she's attracted to me.

Advice is always appreciated.

Good point Royalty.

Ahh, yes, the attraction factor. That's vital. Do you tease her much? If not, you need to learn how to tease girls. If you do, that's a key that I use personally to attract girls to me. You keep things interesting, keep her guessing, laughing, wondering what's next, when you tease her. She'll start to get that twinkle in her eyes toward you. She'll start looking at you more, waiting to hear what comes out of your mouth next, in other words thinking about you more, when you start teasing her. Use push/pull when you do that as well. That will also increase the attraction.

Either make a statement that teases and slightly pushes her away while at the same time physically pulling her to you, or make statements back to back that push, then pull. You get the idea.

First off Welcome to the forums man. You already got my 2 cents on AIM. These guys are all pretty much on the same page as i am.

Plus i think you should read through The Game and also through any posts on the forums you think will help you. I garentee after you finish the game and read a couple posts you'll not only feel like a new man, but you'll want more...and beleive me there are a shit ton of books out there and other materials.

You will go from thinking of each girl as do or die and start looking at them as practise (stepping stones if you will) to the next, more attractive girl.

As Tripp pointed out and we talked about yesterday, dont be needy or clingy...its time for her to seek you out and do a little chasing of her own. Dont be available all the time and dont respond to every word she says, half of what she says is just looking for attention. She will respect you more if you dont give it to her when she doesnt deserve it.

I'm writing through a massive hangover, so forgive me if I... die mid-sentence. Welcome to the forum dude.

I think you probably had a good chance to kiss her when you watched the movie at your house. Don't worry, I think that if this was your chance then it will come again. But it does seem like you are dangerously flirting with that BFF line. I think that you don't necessarily avoid that by being a jerk, but rather avoid it by placing yourself on the correct side. In other words, if you just hang out innocuously for six months and then try to kiss her it would probably be awkward, but if you try to kiss her every few times you hang out then the fact that she is still hanging out with you means she is interested.

I didn't gather-- are you a virgin too? I completely agree with Tripp that you don't want to press the sex issue too hard, and that you should avoid alcohol for that reason. Besides, alcohol seems to really limit sexual performance, especially with age. I'm in the opposite side of these guys, it seems, in that I love one-night stands, but I hate when I drink too much and worry that I wasn't performing as well as I should have been the night before.

I think you misunderstood Tripp in his statement about one-itis. What he means by this, and what is apparent from your writings, is that you may like this girl a little too much for the level of attention you are getting in return. When you do that, you are effectively tipping your hand, and you consequently give her too much power over you. That's really the difference between AFC and PUA.

The thing is, when you find a girl that you want to devote all of your energy toward that's cool, but before that you have to play ball in order to get her in the first place. You just can't give so much to her without her putting out in return or you will be stuck in the friend zone forever.

My advice is to spend less time with her and to see other people. She will notice. If she questions it, which she probably will, say you liked (make sure you say it past-tense) her, but you were going to get stuck in the friend zone so you moved on. Then when you see her again escellate your kino with her rapidly. Take control of the situation instead of waiting around forever like most people your age do.

Yeah I stopped being needy around her a while ago. It occurred to me that it wasn't attractive or cute.

I'm banking on that she's going to call or IM me in the next few days to work out with her, since she doesn't have her own membership yet.

By the way, I do tease her, I neg her, all sorts of that stuff. But I also compliment her, which I think is where I've made my mistakes. I guess I'll keep that down, or maybe somebody can recommend a good way to compliment her without being detrimental to her attraction to me...

Any suggestions on the next steps to getting her to be attracted to me?

Sorry Karma, I didn't see your response until just now. I'm not a virgin, I lost my v-card at the ripe age of 14

What you said about her confronting me, I really hope that happens, so I can say exactly what you suggested. It's definitely something I'll do, or wait for.

I guess I'll be taking the kino further, or at least doing it more often. As well as the trying to kiss. But I'm concerned with the latter, what if she pulls away or rejects the kiss? It's a potentially very awkward situation; can somebody provide a survival guide to not getting the kiss?

Thanks, you guys have helped so much already.

Actually, complimenting is fine because it creates a balance. You can't constantly neg and tease without complimenting as well or you just become a total jerk. That's where the push/pull factor comes in. The compliment would be the pull after the push of the tease.

If she rejects the kiss, just tell her you were mistaken and thought she wanted it.

L.A. Tripp wrote:

If she rejects the kiss, just tell her you were mistaken and thought she wanted it.

Also, yeah it might be a little awkward at first but just keep in mind that she's probably not going to jump on you and initiate it, so if you don't initiate it, it will probably never happen. If she does pull away, just laugh it off. Don't apologize and don't let it get weird. Then you can tease her about it a little later. You can keep it from becoming awkward by just acting normal afterward. And really, if you think about it, it's just a kiss so you have no reason to make that awkward.

Yeah, I'm probably going to take Karma's plan B, just laughing it off and teasing her about it. I probably *won't* apologize, I'm trying to avoid doing that. I do it too much as it is.

It is just a kiss, but at my age, girls still think it's a big deal.

Again, I really appreciate how much you guys are helping me with this issue. My only regret is that I didn't find you guys earlier.

I'm still watching this thread like a hawk, so all your responses are read fairly quickly, and responded to in a similar manner.

Well, you're only 17, so now is prime time anyway. You haven't missed anything yet, my man. You're just about to embark on all the good stuff.

I wouldn't just stick with watching this thread bro. We've got some great stuff in our PUG archive under the Reports/Archive section. You'll find some great into in there as well as other threads on here. Check em out man.

Well I've been all over the place, just skimming over what i find interesting/useful. So far it's all great stuff. When I said "watching like a hawk" I really meant "coming back every so often to see if anything has changed."

I've noticed a great feeling of community here, respect between peers. There's very little animosity between members, or so I sense. However, after going through a few threads, I noticed that there are fewer members than I had thought there were. Not that there is a problem with this, but with all the threads, sections, and topics, I thought the site had many more members than those I've seen.

So back to my current situation: I haven't spoken/called/IM'd/contacted her in a while, relying on the information given to me by Ka via AIM in a very helpful conversation. It's been a few days, she hasn't said anything.

She hasn't even contacted me to work out. Any ideas? I wouldn't want to let it get completely awkward, or even lose her. I know it sounds a bit like I'm overvaluing her, but she's a girl who means a lot to me, who could mean more, and has real emotional and physical financial significance to me.

She's loaded ...difficult to impress with a couple of bucks. I'm having a lot of trouble figuring out what she values. On any note, I don't plan on just "giving up" anytime soon.

Still reading The Game, I've really got to purchase a hardcopy. The .pdf is a bit annoying and the screen starts to hurt my eyes. Opinions on anything I've said?

I agree with the others, take a look around but primarily your goal should be to finish The Game...i can see your already picking up on new acronyms and concepts, thats good. Plus your ONLY 17...most of us dont start this til our 20's, 30's even later. We all wish we coulda found out about it earlier in life...but really we all found it when we were ready to find it.

As far as the kiss goes...you need to realize that perception is everything. If you dont perceive something as a big deal then its not a big deal and most times the person will act accordingly. I however would be careful how you laff off the kiss if she doesnt go for it...best thing imo to do would be to just smile and change subjects, talk about something other then that as if it never happened.

Also keep in mind, when i helped you on AIM with her we employed an interesting topic to engage and hook her, some playful banter, and we did not get the desired reaction from her. If shes not willing to communicate and shes being weird thats her problem, not yours. Best thing to do there is leave the ball in her court...what she does is up to her and out of your hands, so dont worry about it.

You have to be completely willing to say and do things that confront you with the risk of loseing "her". Doing those types of things are what will make you progress with women. For instance is it possible that if you go for a kiss she will cut you off...sure, not likely but possible...but whats worse is if you never go for it and nothing ever happens. You have to play to win.

If you know someone else (girl or guy) thats interested in working out take them now...might do her some good to find out you dont seem to care and just took someone else along. Look up the attraction switches...just a fyi Tripp listed them in this very post...but expand on it, research it. Start to use those in basic ways to build attraction with her without even needing to communicate with her.

And last but not least...remember that your not dating her atm, you have no commitment to her, so play the feild, talk to other girls and socialize. Challenge yourself, lookup openers and memorize one, use it on a girl (or set) you have never talked to...be it at school or at a store or whatever. You'll find that after you have said the first few words that its not so bad its fun actually...and youll find that girls are not as rejecting as we would think.

Good point, I could easily take somebody else, let her see she's not the end all, be all. The only reason I could see that this wouldn't take me out of this stagnation is that she could easily get her own membership, and then she doesn't really need me. Then again, it was her idea to be my "workout buddy."

Back to the kiss, should I aim for a target of lesser value at first? Perhaps the cheek? I know she likes being kissed on her neck, she's been teasing me with it, as I have been teasing her.

Acting like it's not a big deal is a great idea, I've done similar things before, and manipulated a lot of people with it. Maybe it's time to start acting and realize that a kiss really isn't a big deal.

We talk about making out a lot, she's really comfortable with talking about it with me. It's both good and bad, I suppose.