People miss the point of this community

I see in a lot of places where guys complain and claim the community screwed their life up, steered them in the wrong direction, blah blah blah.

I also see where guys complain about others being cloned.

Well, guess what . . . each and every single person makes their choice of what they ultimately want to do. The information from this community is presented as just that . . . information. Each person does with this information what he or she chooses.

Have we lost sight of that?

Do we not use our own heads to make our own choices each and everyday? Do we not use our own minds to decide what to say to whom and when? Sure, we get GUIDANCE or TIPS on how to handle things, which is what this community teaches, but when did we start thinking that the community brainwashes people?

Guess what . . . the community does nothing of the sort. Each and every individual does this on their own.

You have a mind of your own. You learn the PRINCIPLES behind PUA, then you APPLY those principles to your own life.

You learn what attracts women, the underlying principles, then you APPLY those principles to your life and your personality.

Is THAT brainwashing? Is THAT cloning???

COME ON PEOPLE, GROW UP AND GET A GRIP.

Wow im surprised anyone would think that. The people i consider to be part of this or the PUA community as whole, are all very interesting unique people. They have thier own opinions, motives, behaviors and personalities...the only common denominator is a common interest in PU.

For the people complaining there must be something wrong with how they view themselves. You have no body else to blame for who you are but yourself, and if you have time and you put energy into worrying about how other people live thier lives...well you've got too much time on your hands.

Sure there are "clones", those are the people who are around for a month or so then disapear and are forgotten...besides im sure we can all be honest and say that at some point, especially early on, we did emulate others. Thats natural and how people learn...99% of the shit you know and do is "copied' from someones elses discovery...PUA isnt exempt from that.

The sad truth is it took me 24 years to realize that there was no one to blame but myself for where i was in life and who i was. I like alot of people blamed my parents, luck, fate, god, friends, enemies, etc. Alot of people who know me would say i have every right to feel like that given my history. However i finally realised that i determine how i turn out, not others. Its not my dad's fault he kicked me out or emotionally abuses me...its my fault for allowing myself to be spoken to that way or be in the position for him to hold his athority over me. Its not the economies fault i didnt get a job, it was my fault for not trying harder or being more educated. Its not circumstances fault that i havent had a license for 4 and a half years, its my fault for loseing it.

So anyone complaining needs to buck up, either you connect with the topics here and use it however it benefits you, or your free to leave and move on with life.

Your making a lot of assumptions about the average PUA as justification to insult those who hold those views. And I don't agree with those assumptions.

Hobbit wrote:

Your making a lot of assumptions about the average PUA as justification to insult those who hold those views. And I don't agree with those assumptions.

Hobbit, I know by your comments to me lately you have a problem with me, or with my thought processes, or something. I don't know what it is, but something is going on. That's fine. You have a right to your opinion.

Now, if you can step back and open your mind, I'm not making assumptions about the average PUA in this post. In fact, this post came from direct observation of what I talk about within this post. Not so much on this forum right here, but on others. It's out there. It's plain as day light for anyone to see. Those people and others like them also look at this forum now, and will be checking it out more in the near future as well, which is why I put it here also. This isn't an insult, either. It's a call to action.

So tell me, what assumptions do you believe I'm making that you don't agree with? If you want to debate me, I'm fine with that, but point out what you are talking about . . . instead of making generalizations my bro. In other words, back your words up.

Wikipedia wrote:

Brainwashing (also known as thought reform or as re-education) consists of any effort aimed at instilling certain attitudes and beliefs in a person — beliefs sometimes unwelcome or in conflict with the person's prior beliefs and knowledge, in order to affect that individual's value system and subsequent thought-patterns and behaviors.

The community doesn't do this? I think that its done to almost everyone joining the community, the problem is when the person gets brainwashed into a thing they didn't want to become.

L.A. Tripp wrote:

Well, guess what . . . each and every single person makes their choice of what they ultimately want to do. The information from this community is presented as just that . . . information. Each person does with this information what he or she chooses.

The community is a community because there are others helping you get that information. Those who help you have their ideas about how one should behave and such. One classic example is anytime someone gets in a relationship, its oneitis. They have been brain washed to label any attachment in such a way.

Quote :

Do we not use our own heads to make our own choices each and everyday? Do we not use our own minds to decide what to say to whom and when? Sure, we get GUIDANCE or TIPS on how to handle things, which is what this community teaches, but when did we start thinking that the community brainwashes people?

The collective mentality is greatly influential on people, especially those who struggle with women and have always had trouble fitting in. They will act accordingly to fit in for once in their life.

Quote :

Guess what . . . the community does nothing of the sort. Each and every individual does this on their own.

Of course its not entirely the communities fault, but you can't dismiss it. Almost all of the country obeyed Hitler in his views against the Jews. There were a few who went again the norm, but many just did what they were told. People are inclined to act the way the group acts. The larger the group, the more influence to act a certain way. This has been empirically proven numerous times.

Quote :

You have a mind of your own. You learn the PRINCIPLES behind PUA, then you APPLY those principles to your own life. You learn what attracts women, the underlying principles, then you APPLY those principles to your life and your personality.

Your assuming they learn the principles and apply them. Maybe the sentence should read your suppose to. That sentence would suggest that people get cloned/brainwashed because they don't do what they are supposed to do. But then that would mean that it does brainwash and clone those who don't. Which is a large percentage of people.


I apologize for not elaborating, as I did not realize you wanted a debate.

And I have no problem with you. If I didn't like you, I wouldn't post here.

Thank you for elaborating. No, I wasn't specifically wanting or looking for a debate actually, but my point is that if you want to disagree with something or present an opposing view, back up why with your reasons.

Alright, on the brainwashing definition, could that not be applied to pretty much EVERY type of education? Even the government run schools do this very thing. Every group that a person could be involved in would want you to think "their" way. Of course, that's pretty much the purpose of the group, for those of "common" interest to get together.

Now, in this case, the community itself, as a whole, cannot be responsible for the individual choices that are made. They are just that, individual choices, that each and every person makes by themselves. The problem you are talking about, which apparently looks like the community is doing it, is because people CHOOSE to follow every little thing any old nitwit tells them.

However, that still isn't the responsibility of the community. That's the responsibility of the person following that advice or those actions.

You can't go into a court of law and claim "he told me to do this, so it's his fault", and have the judge let you go and imprison "him". The judge will tell you that you made the choice to follow "him", so it's "your" responsibility. The only thing close to that is claiming you are insane, which too many people do these days.

It still boils down to personal responsibility. Each and every one of us is responsible for our own actions. We can choose to follow someone or not to follow someone.

You are sounding like you are soured on the community. Sorry to hear that.

The whole point of this is the fact that the community IS here to present information for each person to use to help them to grow and become better in their life, with girls and in general. How each person uses this information is completely up to them.

I'm leaning towards Hobbit's side on this one too Tripp. There are many responsible and "real" people out there, but there are also more people that enter the community and they have these assumptions based upon The Game and other high profile materials, that makes them believe certain things and because a well known source says it, they tend to stick by it. Hell, I've had students sit there and say to me, "But...but Ozzy says..." and I think it's ridiculous, because they aren't thinking for themselves, they are just siding with whoever they percieve to be the most "successful". The reason why I put that in quotations, is because many of these guys don't even understand what it truly means to be successful with women and in life, they are under the false belief that those big name guys are fucking 5 different girls a week (they're not, I've talked to other big name guys and I've learned the truth of it; they're generally by themselves or sleeping with mostly braindead and very attractive girls) and that this makes them happy individuals. We try to tell them that those guys are often in therapy, have emotional imbalances and aren't the least bit happy, but they stick by their belief that lots of meaningless sex will make them fulfilled.

That's just one predominant issue, there's the others such as one-itis that Hobbit pointed out and how typically when a guy posts about a specific girl, he is told to "just forget about her and move on" (I've read that exact phrase, word-for-word, literally hundreds of times and I'm sure you have too).

One of the ones that bothers me most and that I can't go an entire conversation without someone bringing up, is "approach anxiety". Let's get J in here and we'll hear his thoughts on that ridiculous piece of brainwashing, cause I know they're the same as mine. AA is something that develops more extensively because of all the focus upon it in the community; if we just told guys that it's not a big deal, it's just 'discomfort' and not 'anxiety' then it wouldn't be nearly as bad, but due to all the emphasis upon the word anxiety, it builds up into this massive issue that can keep guys from ever approaching. They read "everything there is on AA" and it only makes it worse. I'm not making this shit up, I've talked to guys that have said that and they used to be able to approach a bit, but then after spending so much effort thinking about it, it grew into a massive problem and couldn't approach at all anymore!

So sure, there's a lot of great stuff about the community and it really is up to you how you want to process that information and what you get out of it, but that doesn't mean that you don't have to fight the massive current of newbies and guys that go with the flow, creating an overwhelming tide that can pull the unwary off course and into that whirlpool of destructive thinking.

I respect all of your opinions, but i think your missing Tripp's point, which is basically think for yourself, as you guys do.

Its like the old saying, "If all your friends where jumping off a bridge, would you?" The answer is of course not. Just because everyone says or does something does not force you to make the same poor choice.

There is also a term in psychology called "externalizing blame", in other words not accepting responsability for ones own actions and instead blaming other external forces for your problems. Thats what alot of that is. When you blame the community for the way you turned out what your saying is "i messed up but its your fault".

Hell i know i havent been around in the PUA community that long, it seems like yesterday to me. Actually this month marks a year. I never had an issue seperating fact from fiction or making my own choice based on the many different points on a given topic. There is plenty of mainstream material i do not agree with, and i came to that accord on my own, even though the majority follows it.

Id venture to say the majority of the time you see a one itis claim, its because the person asking has started with some rediculous statement like, "I've been in class with this chick for 5 years and every time i say hi to her she laffs in my face, how can i make her like me.".(and im sure you've been directly asked stuff like that, even i have)

Sure, there are some points where its not the right thing to tell someone. And ill be the first to admit that sometimes its not what they need to hear and you get a guy who is just a follower saying it because he heard it...but the majority of the time its what the guy needs to hear. If they take it out of context and decide being in a relationship is one-itis thats thier fault.

Its like trying to blame rock music for a school shooting or a violent video game for a violent kids behavior...do those things contribute...possibly, are they THE reason, not a chance.

Its the same as this very topic, are you guys gonna just go with the flow and accept what we are saying as gospel? Of course not because you guys can think for yourselves and your intitled to have your own opinions.

I think Tripp, and im sure he will correct me if im wrong, was describing a small group of what id label as x-PUA's or soon to be x-PUA's who are complaining and externalizing blame on the community for who they are or what they have done with themselves.

*FOOD FOR THOUGHT*

Where you brainwashed in school to beleive in evolution?

Think carefully about this, you where given only 1 of many ideas on this topic while in school.

I never meant to imply that it isn't the persons fault. One of the first things I do when a PUA starts having a breakdown about losing track of everything is "what were your initial goal" and "why did you stop pursuing it". Of course its not the communities fault alone. But to say the agent of socialization has nothing to do with the problem is absurd. And Rye Lee, that AA point is really a good one. There was a post on the Venusian Arts forum about how AA may be a "Created" emotion through its use in PUA. He cited examples of how there are weird emotions certain tribes feel that no one else feels.

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You can't go into a court of law and claim "he told me to do this, so it's his fault", and have the judge let you go and imprison "him". The judge will tell you that you made the choice to follow "him", so it's "your" responsibility. The only thing close to that is claiming you are insane, which too many people do these days.

This happens often. Contributing to the delinquency of minors. Rap music. Video games. War trials. There are plenty but those are just the first that come to mind.

Again, I'm not saying the community is evil. I'm saying that its not innocent.


And I haven't been soured by the community, per say. My view of the community has actually improved as of late for the most part. Its just certain things that still bug me about the community. And one of them is the way most PUA's try to shove their beliefs down people's throats. I've seen guys get criticized for admitting they wanted a relationship. I've been criticized for that myself on numerous occasions by some of the better PUA's I've met through the community. I really just feel most PUA's become sex machines and try to convince everyone else thats the way it should be. And then randomly they crash and get all depressed and stuff for a while. So I'm not sour with the community, just a certain archetype of member which is far too frequent for my tastes.

Hobbit, what you mention here about some members becoming sex machines and shoving their beliefs down other people's throats . . . influencing others to think the same way, as I said earlier, is not special to this community. Any kind of organization will want their members to think the way they do. Also, what you highlight STILL comes down to the individuals choice, NOT the community's responsibility as a whole.

Laying the blame on the community itself is just a cop out to be honest.

There are strong personalities and opinions in this community, just as there are in any other group or organization. If there weren't strong personalities, quite frankly there would be no leaders to grow this community.

As far as the court examples you use . . . the fact that you heard or read about those specific things shows that those particular instances don't happen all the time, or you wouldn't hear about them. Go into court yourself and try, in a normal court room, in a normal every day court setting, and try to deny personal responsibility. Most of the time it straight up won't fly with the judge. I've personally been in court enough to see this stuff first hand. Not only with myself, but watching others in front of the judge when I'm waiting my turn.

I pay child support. Have for years. I've been in court a lot. I've had other issues in my life that required me to go to court as well. I know what "normally" happens in court and the judge handles things.

This denying personal responsibility crap is just that . . . crap. As I said, laying blame on others, such as the community, is one of the biggest cop outs there are.

You mention that there are similar mentalities of people all throughout society and that's true, there are extremists everywhere and everyone, even the most open-minded and impartial person has trouble not trying to persuade others as to the relevance of their beliefs, even if those beliefs are simply open-mindedness. I think the difference in the community is the outspokenness of those extremists and their predominance and acceptance due to that abundance.

Take for instance a thread created by one of the members of PUAF over on the Gamefaqs forum just yesterday. He posted a few very mild PUA concepts on one of the boards (I didn't bother to check which one, but probably one of the more general ones and definitely well trafficed). Within 12 hours there was 13 pages of replies of people flaming him for his mentality of not supplicating to women and whatever else he had written. I read a whole page and didn't see one person even saying a neutral comment.

Now in the community, I've seen people post guides on how to twist a girl's perception of reality so that she feels compelled to be around you and sleep with you and although many of us attack them, there are always a bunch of guys that applaud them as well, sometimes over 50% of the replies in fact. I've read threads that enraged me and after going through 3 pages of responses I was the only person to criticise the detestable things they had said.

I'm not saying that the blame rests squarely on the shoulders of the community. I can't prove that, no one can. You can't prove that it's not to blame either though. By trying to prove one side or the other, we would be falling into what is called a Fallacy Ad Ignorantium, which is basically a matter of claiming that you're right because you can't be proven wrong. I think it's foolhardy to believe the community has no effect on these people though.

Imagine what many of these people were like before they entered the community. Remember what YOU were like before you discovered the community. Now think what these people would be like were they never to have found the community, or what you yourself would be like. We've all experienced a LOT of belief changes because of the knowledge we've been exposed to and like it or not, the community is responsible for that, whether you go about it intelligently or not. We all get influenced and we all get a little bit altered and if we had never joined the community, it wouldn't have happened. I sometimes find myself thinking to myself, "My god, I never would have thought something like that 2 years ago. I never would have viewed that person in that way." or any number of variations of that thinking.

I don't believe videogames or violent movies are directly responsible for shootings in schools these days either, but I don't recall hearing about any similar incidents back when Mario was first invented and I was told I had to be 18 to rent Terminator, which we all know isn't a tremendously violent movie. These days you can play games where some of the violence actually shocks me due to its' vividness and where people look at me funny for stating that I refuse to watch any of the Saw or Hostle movies on account of the gore turning my stomach. Tell me you don't see any corrolation between the two at all. Tell me you can't look at the timelines and see an increase in accepted media violence and real violence being even remotely related. Remember, I'm not trying to say they're responsible, I'm just trying to ask you whether you think there has been any slight impact at all, in the slightest. If you can honestly say to yourself that you don't believe there is even the smallest fraction of a link, then I think you're decieving yourself, but that's just me.

Now on the other hand, I've also been a proponent of the belief that videogame violence may have actually stopped certain individuals participating in violence. I know that if I ever get the itch to bash someone's face in with a tire iron I can just find a game where I can find that release. I've wanted to beat the crap out of people that have caused me a lot of hardship, but instead I just play a few rounds of Smash Bros and instead I'm smiling and laughing at the concept of being able to throw a pokeball at my employer, rather than contemplating breaking a bottle and twisting it in their face.

Just cause we can see both sides of the fence doesn't mean that we should fool ourselves into believing that there aren't other lawns where the circumstances are decidedly different. I don't entirely blame the community, but I'm not convinced it hasn't played a part in helping some of those people grow into weeds, without the community, perhaps fewer weeds would have taken root. I'd like to think of the community as a nice fertile garden in comparison to a regular grassy lawn; sure in a garden you get your flowers, but without proper care it also grows a lot more weeds than you'll get on your lawn as well.

I hope that analogy came across properly...

I see your arguments, but I still think you miss the point. Those people that are the bad apples would be "bad apples" anyway. Every community or organization has them. The thing is, with those people, it is THEIR choice to be that way, period.

For instance, I once again have The Wild One harassing me. Guess what. It's HIS choice that he continues to do this. He CAN choose NOT to do this and just to leave me alone.

It STILL boils down to the fact that it's up to each individual to make their own choice. Regardless of the influence of the crowd.

This would be a great conversational thread in field!

L.A. Tripp wrote:

It STILL boils down to the fact that it's up to each individual to make their own choice. Regardless of the influence of the crowd.

Tripp, your making normative arguments. Sadly, we don't live in the "what should be" but the "what is". You continually counter my posts by saying I'm missing the point, yet every post I say its not the communities fault entirely. Your also arguing that people shouldn't be influenced, but are not taking into account the subconscious socialization the community does.

And also, those kinds of trails happen often Contributing to the delinquency of a minor is one of the charges they tack on people above age. You say you've been to court, so you know how it works. My family has made national and international news for a crime that dealt with socialization problems. I've had experience with such things also. But anecdotal really doesn't matter, the fact that matters is those cases exist.

There have been many studies on the group mentality of people and the influence of groups. You can't argue people don't work that way, its pretty much accepted they do. You can argue they shouldn't--but again-- thats a normative argument. I have yet to say the community is entirely at fault. I'm trying to say without being harsh that you should stop reading my posts under directional goals and read what I'm saying. I agree with your points of what it should be, but it seems you aren't opening your mind to what I'm trying to convey. Again, we are only human and its hard for us to turn off heuristics. I'm not trying to flame you, just asking to think of my points before defending the position again. I actually agree with the points you make, just think they are normative and not what really happens.

Well, Ive read all post and I say all parties aside has made good points, so lets agree to disagree on the view. Please, its enough of it in the world for BITCHASSNESS to be on this forum.

That is something I say is going on here, you both are continuously throwing little subtle hints at what your truely feeling. Thats what Im reading between the lines, I think in so many words Ka has tried to calm down this little hin dig. But, these are just clashing views on the same point, which are strong and valid, instead of arguing try to find some common ground.

L.A. Tripp wrote:

I see your arguments, but I still think you miss the point. Those people that are the bad apples would be "bad apples" anyway. Every community or organization has them. The thing is, with those people, it is THEIR choice to be that way, period.

For instance, I once again have The Wild One harassing me. Guess what. It's HIS choice that he continues to do this. He CAN choose NOT to do this and just to leave me alone.

It STILL boils down to the fact that it's up to each individual to make their own choice. Regardless of the influence of the crowd.

I disagree completely. You're looking at the jackasses and saying that they'd still be jackasses - which they most likely would - but what about all the guys that "would be" computer geeks and "nice guys" that have been told that by acting in certain ways they will become better with women. I'll tell you what; often they end up becoming social robots and conforming the a belief that they should use lines like "have you seen the fight outside?" or any number of rehearsed pre-packaged material, due to seeing others doing the same and being successful. They assume they can't become naturally good and so they learn to become these social robots and they never would have become those people without the community because that information wouldn't have been available to them, not would they have people telling them that a PUA can best a natural, which is an argument I have heard and even made a case for in the past (but no longer). Sorry, but they wouldn't be those robots and you can't tell me otherwise with a straight face.

Juice wrote:

Well, Ive read all post and I say all parties aside has made good points, so lets agree to disagree on the view. Please, its enough of it in the world for BITCHASSNESS to be on this forum.

That is something I say is going on here, you both are continuously throwing little subtle hints at what your truely feeling. Thats what Im reading between the lines, I think in so many words Ka has tried to calm down this little hin dig. But, these are just clashing views on the same point, which are strong and valid, instead of arguing try to find some common ground.

I have no clue what your talking about. First off, its really ignorant to say that a debate is BITCHASSNESS. The human race has risen above animals for its ability to further the intersubjective knowledge. I'm pretty sure I've also agreed with Tripp on various points in a theoretical sense, and am debating the real world. Isn't that middle ground? And if I was trying to convey some way I am truly feeling, I would say it. I think your post is trying to start a flame more than any other post in this discussion and don't understand why it was even warranted.

Hobbit wrote:

Juice wrote:

Well, Ive read all post and I say all parties aside has made good points, so lets agree to disagree on the view. Please, its enough of it in the world for BITCHASSNESS to be on this forum.

That is something I say is going on here, you both are continuously throwing little subtle hints at what your truely feeling. Thats what Im reading between the lines, I think in so many words Ka has tried to calm down this little hin dig. But, these are just clashing views on the same point, which are strong and valid, instead of arguing try to find some common ground.

I have no clue what your talking about. First off, its really ignorant to say that a debate is BITCHASSNESS. The human race has risen above animals for its ability to further the intersubjective knowledge. I'm pretty sure I've also agreed with Tripp on various points in a theoretical sense, and am debating the real world. Isn't that middle ground? And if I was trying to convey some way I am truly feeling, I would say it. I think your post is trying to start a flame more than any other post in this discussion and don't understand why it was even warranted.

Sorry sir, If I was trying to start some shit, ill start it! Believe me, I dont care if the post was warranted or not. If anything I want to keep the peace, and Im sorry you couldnt catch the joke. To be honest, im on niether side on the subject. Like I said in the first post, its strong arguments on both, Im just saying we can agree to disagree.

If every time there was a meaningful discussion with opposing viewpoints, people agreed to disagree, then very little would be accomplished in life and our view of the world would stagnate through a lack of being challenged and changing. Just because people discuss something with passion doesn't make it a fight, or something that should be stopped. Rather, if you are discussing something meaningful without any passion, then there's hardly any point in discussing it at all, as you obviously don't give a shit about it.

I really wish every time people got into a debate over a subject that other people wouldn't jump in and start trying to end it without any reason aside from not wanting people to discuss. Sometimes putting an end to a debate is necessary when it goes on for an incredibly long time, to the point where no new points are being spoken and the argument just goes around in circles, but until such a time, there is NO harm in having an intelligent debate, so just chill out and take your bitchassness elsewhere if you have no input. Unless of course I'm the only one that sees this as a decent discussion and isn't afraid of opening my mind up to opposing viewpoints. I'd personally be quite interested hear what Tripp or anyone else has to say regarding my previous post. Are we kosher Juice?

This is exactly why the world hates us in this community. It's called accountability. We want to lay the blame on the community or on those in the community instead of just admitting that our choices are our own. Guys do take the information from this community and manipulate girls, play girls, use girls, but it's not the community that does this, it's those individual guys. Yet the community gets blamed. Personal accountability is missing.

Rye, this community serves the purpose of giving those "geeks" what they need in order to attract women, which is something they don't currently know how to do. It's still their choice what they do with the information presented to them. Sure, they do at times become social robots, but you know why? It's not because the community forced it down their throats, bent their arms backward, stuck a gun to their head, and told them they would become robots or die. No, they still CHOSE to become those robots. Sure, they probably believe they have to, but that just means they didn't use their head to mesh the principles with their life. It is still their choice and you can't honestly deny that.

L.A. Tripp wrote:

This is exactly why the world hates us in this community. It's called accountability. We want to lay the blame on the community or on those in the community instead of just admitting that our choices are our own. Guys do take the information from this community and manipulate girls, play girls, use girls, but it's not the community that does this, it's those individual guys. Yet the community gets blamed. Personal accountability is missing.

Rye, this community serves the purpose of giving those "geeks" what they need in order to attract women, which is something they don't currently know how to do. It's still their choice what they do with the information presented to them. Sure, they do at times become social robots, but you know why? It's not because the community forced it down their throats, bent their arms backward, stuck a gun to their head, and told them they would become robots or die. No, they still CHOSE to become those robots. Sure, they probably believe they have to, but that just means they didn't use their head to mesh the principles with their life. It is still their choice and you can't honestly deny that.

It just seems to me that your biggest focus is still on the fact that guys that are jerks, whereas I'm more concerned about the guys that are nice guys and just fall into the crowd of people that read MM or something like that and end up doing nothing but using canned routines and conversations and constantly complain about running out of things to say and not knowing what to say in certain situations. I saw a thread yesterday that I wish I could find, where someone outright said that using canned material for your most interaction was a great way to go, because "even Mystery and style use something like 60-80% canned material and 100% when it's an HB 10". I just think that that's a horrific mentality to have, because then I end up seeing 4 threads in a row about "what to say talk about on a date" or "what to say to this girl" and "what's a great opener".

A few things I have noticed about a lot of guys who join the community is that:

A) They think that getting women is to change from being a nice guy to a jerk.
B) Having real feelings for someone is "oneitis" and should be avoided.
C) Having a bunch of one-night stands means that you are successful with women.
D) They begin to think all women are the same turning them into a bunch of robots.
E) They turn into someone who is incredibly cocky which is only a mask of confidence insecure people wear.

I think a lot of the guys lose the ability to be themselves.

Rye, you are correct in your assessment that meaningful discussions are needed to carry out progressive advancement. so, with that agreed upon viewpoint, I insert my stance on this matter as follows.

This is a community that does have the capacity, ingrained within it to not only influence one's personal choice,but offer a choice of prescriptive matters. The issue to me isn't that the community influences one's respective choice, but does that influence overbear one's individual ideal, as to what he or she sees within themselves as an option to choose.

Furthermore, our influences can and will make us more perceptible and bias in our own schemas of the world. That to me includes our experiences, upbringings, past learned systems, and learning new systems. The discovery of this community plays an aspect in all of the aforementioned in the previous sentence. The one constant in all of those are I's.

I or you, to integrate my stance into a more readable text, the community's good and bad side, can't be withstood or hold the holy grail over one's personal responsibility. It's a ratio, of 52-48 in my viewpoint. 52 personal choice as opposed to 48 community factors. How one interprets the info is what resoundingly matters the most. peace,lvoe and succe SS

Ka and Fortune have both made the point I've been trying to make as well.

~Meg~ wrote:

A few things I have noticed about a lot of guys who join the community is that:

A) They think that getting women is to change from being a nice guy to a jerk.
B) Having real feelings for someone is "oneitis" and should be avoided.
C) Having a bunch of one-night stands means that you are successful with women.
D) They begin to think all women are the same turning them into a bunch of robots.
E) They turn into someone who is incredibly cocky which is only a mask of confidence insecure people wear.

I think a lot of the guys lose the ability to be themselves.

Meg, you are right with this. And here's the problem, and once again, the accountability aspect. The marketing IS done specifically to draw guys in that don't otherwise know how to attract women. Sure, the marketing, the information is designed to be obnoxious most of the time. Any marketing firm will design ads that are attention getting, otherwise the marketing would be useless.

Now, we ALL have received and learn the same information from this community. How we each interpret that information is up to each of us.

I have gotten the same information everyone else on this forum has, or has the ability to get. The difference in my case is that I have more field experience than most of you here. Not all, but most. Obviously I get things and lessons from that as well, which I try to pass on.

Yes, some guys are of the mentality that the score matters, that woman aren't fellow humans, aren't worth anything, etc. I've been trying to hammer home lately that woman are worth just as much as men. Of course that doesn't go out to the entire community, but even if it did, that is more information that once again is at the mercy of the receiver.

No matter what I can personally say, what I say can and will be interpreted by each and every individual that receives what I say, in their own way. You know what that means? They are personally responsible for how the interpret my teachings. They are personally responsible for their individual mindsets. Which means . . . it's their choice.

Meg your post highlights the dangers and problems, but those dangers and problems are up to each guy, and how they use the information that is presented to them, which is the same information that I and every other person here has learns or has received.

Now, we SHOULD work to counteract those dangers and problems, but ultimately, it's STILL up to each person and how they use the information.

You know i just realized we are argueing two different things that in a very small area intersect and overlap.

Accountability & Morality...

We as individuals are responsible for the actions we take, accountability.

The source of the info or the group is responsible for the moral fiber of the content, information and ideals they place out there, but not for how people use it, that responsibility lies on the individual...because interpretation is done by the individual.

Saying the source is responsible for the actions of the individual is like saying the pilot training company who trained the 911 hijackers to fly is responsible for the attacks on 911. They showed em how to take off and fly straight. Are they responsible for not asking questions of the hijackers...sure, in a moral sense and thats for them to deal with...are they accountable for the attacks, not in the least bit.

Its the same thing with school shootings and violent video games. I did research on this for a debate. While its possible for violent video games to trigger aggression in people who have passive aggressions problems, it can also act as an outlet for people who have more outwardly aggressive tendancies. The problem is not the video game, its the underlying predisposition the people have. Thier interpretations.

Sure the content and information has the Potential to lead people down the wrong path, but which direction they Chose when confronted with a fork in the road is thier choice.